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Susan Linehan's avatar

I'm not sure Kant's rule (and its companion in idea, the Golden Rule) are actually deontological. Such a rule feels different in kind from "thou shalt not commit adultery." It actually is a rule that looks at the consequences of one's actions--will the choice you make be something you can take yourself if that choice is applied to you? It doesn't depend on any model of virtue. So it seems to be in its own category. Are there really only three categories for looking at ethics?

It has its limits. In the parking/bike lane example mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, the decision maker's use of it can depend on whether s/he cares about parking. "I wouldn't mind losing parking since I don't drive" slants the decision to bike lanes. But the broader question might be framed as "would you agree that a long-standing situation (that you relied on to make your choice of where to live) should be overturned for the greater good of people who didn't make choices based on that reliance." That might lead to a different application of the Golden Rule by even those who don't drive.

Seems to me that the whole conundrum shows the limits of using models to describe anything complex without taking into account the boundaries of the model.

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Humbert Rivière's avatar

I have a silly example, but it is something that got me thinking about freedom/ethics in the world and has been with me ever since. I'd want to see whether this contributes anything to our conversation.

So you've probably have witnessed this in gradeschool: little Sally wants to use the restroom. She asks the teacher "Can I use the restroom?" she inquires of the teacher. "I don't know, Sally, *can* you?" says the teacher. So Sally realizes what she really means is "may I". The ability (can) to do then is only hindered by some obvious obstruction (like something physically barring Sally from just walking to the bathroom). In a world absence of ethics there is just pure ability (can) in the world, especially when there is nobody else involved. You get other people involved and then after you have determined you could do the thing, the next thing, ethically, is whether you ought to do it or not.

Determining whether Sally is allowed to use the restroom involves considering both deontological and consequentialist elements.

For example, asking if she may use the restroom rather than can acknowledges there are rules or norms (deontology) governing her freedom in this situation. Simply being able to use the restroom physically (can) differs from having permission (may).

However, the rules around giving children permission also take into account consequences. For example, allowing breaks prevents accidents but also ensures learning isn't unduly disrupted.

Most real-world ethical decisions involve balancing different considerations in a nuanced way. You may say in this situation that both the rules (deontology) and outcomes (consequentialism) matter.

Virtue ethics, as you point out, provides a framework for navigating complex situations by drawing on accumulated wisdom and examples of virtuous behavior over time. Determining what response is virtuous involves understanding both norms/rules and consequences.

So let us say that Sally passes step one that she use can physically go to the restroom without obvious obstruction, but she could bypass step two by sneaking out of the classroom and sneaking back in. If she were successful at that would a consequentialist be concerned here? Maybe, until one day she gets caught then Sally realizes it was more trouble than just asking and dealing with whether she was allowed to or not.

She would recognize there are norms/rules around asking permission that reflect virtues like obedience, respect for authority, and orderliness. Simply going to the bathroom without asking risks consequences like getting in trouble if caught, which could undermine virtues like honesty and responsibility. Sneaking away risks even more negative consequences from getting caught, being very much at odds with virtues of integrity, trustworthiness, etc.

A virtuous person's model in this case would likely be one who follows the rules/norms, even if it means a brief delay, as that aligns more closely with being a good student and trustworthy individual.

Sally's goal under virtue ethics wouldn't just be avoiding permission, but acting in a way that exemplifies virtues overall based on her understanding of role models and social norms. Virtue ethics doesn't just consider rules/consequences in isolation, but how following or subverting them impacts one's character and virtues holistically. There are rarely simple or single-factor answers when real virtue is at stake.

The bathroom scenario Sally faces illustrates how virtue ethics navigates complexity better than other approaches. While she could physically access the bathroom, simply following her ability (can) ignores norms of permission (may). Granting permission considers outcomes like learning disruption. However, virtue ethics goes further.

As you note, virtue ethics relies on internalized models of virtuous behavior. In Sally's role as student, she models obedience and respect for authority by asking first. Though a brief delay, this aligns with virtues of responsibility and orderliness. Alternatively, sneaking away risks negative consequences of getting caught undermining honesty and trustworthiness.

By drawing on accumulated wisdom of virtues, Sally recognizes the most ethical choice exceeds rules or consequences alone. It requires acting consistently with her virtuous role to maintain integrity and trust over self-interest. This holistic perspective is why virtue ethics provides the most satisfactory framework in navigating real-world dilemmas with nuance rather than simplistic models. Sally's scenario demonstrates virtue ethics' superiority in balancing complex factors.

The obvious limitation with my example is of course we're talking about a grade school kid with a brain not yet fully developed, but at that age I think we all had some idea of these ethical principles and consequences to actions, I just did not have the vocabulary to describe them as I do now and as we interact with the world we gradually learn more.

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