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L. Scott Urban's avatar

There are some interesting questions sort of lurking behind this whole conversation. Is beauty solely a perceived phenomenon? Sort of like relativistic light, where it doesn't exist in a definite state until observed? If so, I think that beauty does have a necessary fundamental quality. It has to grab the attention. Hence why novelty and visibility are often key components of a beautiful object. Both of these serve to increase how much attention the thing receives. Once observed, the thing can be beautiful or ugly, but a necessary precondition is that it is observed.

Leaning too heavily on this kind of muddies the conversation, though. Humans always have to notice something before we assess it, so it's a little too easy to say that stuff "doesn't exist" until we pay attention to it. It might be useful to temporarily remove attention grabbers from the conversation, when trying to diagnose any objective core behind beauty. Great songs don't have to be played on the radio in order to be great, but when they are, it makes their greatness much more obvious. So, what is beauty, pre-broadcast? What does it look like, when it doesn't catch the eye? Or does such a beauty exist?

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Cedric Warny's avatar

Excellent! I like the pushback on the visual properties, and Deutsch's dismissal of each feels indeed fairly weak (in particular the spider argument). That said, re: Graham's concentric rings of taste theory, I think Deutsch's claim is that flowers are only beautiful to either bees or humans, not to any other species. To him, only *people* can access (be attracted to) the objective kind of beauty. And that is a testable prediction that would decide between Deutsch and Graham. In other words, bees' attraction to flowers is parochial; but humans' is not. The objective beauty of flowers is an accidental side effect of their need to signal across an interspecies gap. That, however, doesn't mean that Deutsch wasn't wrong to dismiss those properties you go over as being parochial.

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